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 by TehJerk, Level 47
Last updated at December 17, 2007, 10:18 am
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I've played with many premades, been around most of the 'hardcores' in PvE and PvP on my server, and the one thing i've realized more than anything since day 1 of this game, or even most mmorpg's is they are the ones wanting 'competition' the least. There arent players who are more reward oriented than most of them, so reward-oriented in fact thats the whole reason they form premades for BG's - fast honor. To roll the competition. To dodge other teams. To make BG'ing as easymode as possible, by stacking their deck. These are generally the same players who are doing all the afk bg pharming on their newly lvl'd up alts as well. Its not the nubs, they tend to enjoy the casual PvP play of BG's, its more or less the cynical jaded hardcore WoW player.
The same goes for every PvE hardcore raiding guild i know. They dont necessarily welcome the competition, the truth of this is that they go into nerd rage, if the competition surpasses them or gain any distance. They only want to be the best, and as soon as there is 'real' competition they either step up their raiding from 40 hours a week to 60 hours a week, or have mad drama and fold as a guild where they disperse into the new top of the server PvE guilds. Very rarely will a 'hardcore' endgame raiding guild stay together if surpassed. Its not because of the competition its because alot of these 'hardcores' are the worst at losing, in every respect. You will never find nerd rage anywhere else as common as you will in any 'hardcore' WoW venue. You wont find shortcut'ing to rewards more common than from these players. And you will always find that these players have the tendency to always try to stack their deck in every way possible in any level playing field of play.
To me its just the biggest lie in WoW on such a mass scale. Its not competition, its fear/frustration of losing on a level playing field. Thats the bottomline period. You see that guy screaming at everyone in some PUG nerd raging? Thats the guy used to his premade being easymode walk-over the pug competition who cant handle losing and is frustrated his pocket healer didnt make it into the BG with him, and hes getting pwnd left and right while yelling at everyone because hes not used to playing without his arena/premade support.
Dont get me wrong, there are probably at the very top end players who are more into it for the competition, because they are on a level of play that is rare in this game from the masses. So testing themself against the best of the best is what drives them. However this IMO does not represent the masses who front the term competition. I'd swear that 95% if not more of the so-called 'hardcores' in this game that use the term 'earned' or 'competition' are really players that are used to being on top by stacking their decks, and 'earning' usually comes into play when they dont want the playing fields level, so that their advantages stay advantageous vs the masses.
If most of the 'hardcore' Arena/BG/Raiding players were honest, they'd rather not have most players get S1 epics or anything that narrows that gap, because truth is most of them are more into it for being at the top, better than others, being the have's keeping down the havenots, because it gives them an air of superiority and stacked deck vs the masses and thats their basis for playing WoW. I think the term competition is misused now more than ever from almost every Arena player as well as many many hardcore raiding guilds. They are mistakiing the idea that they are truly seeking out challenges in WoW when the truth is they arent, and if anything are protecting themself from the frustrations/emotions of losing. Granted nobody likes to lose but its a part of competition, and i dont think there are some who can accept that.
I'm ready for the flames, bring'em on :p ...i'm just not feeling very politically correct this morning with this rant, but i'd swear by the idea that challenge/competition isnt the goal of most WoW players, however its probably the most stated by wannabe athletes thinking they are actually competitive people. Truth is most just want to be the best or at the top by any means possible, and if they can do it with the least competition, the better. Just stop fronting the term competition/challenge.
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9 comments
Nobbeh Dec 17, 2007 at 10:42 am
+1 votes
I like being superiour to most players gear wise, i like to see my gear stand out from the crowd of players, however i think what you're saying is completely true.
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Eriaa Dec 17, 2007 at 11:59 am
+1 votes
i agree with you, most people make excuses when they lose for example. But I do think there are some teams who really love the competition, otherwise they wouldn't play as much as they do. Take CLC for example, those guys just love to play, and they play a lot. But ya I agree, people que dodge, win trade, etc., then they are like, "stfu im a gladiator".
It was this way in the old honor system to, with PvP guilds setting honor "caps", so that the top ranked people would get their standing and hit their ranks. Wasn't the honor system supposed to be about competition? Granted the system was flawed, but I always hated "caps", or people who begged others to slow down their honor cus they might beat them that week. I played on one of those servers when I went for HWL, and while I mostly followed this guilds caps, because it was nice to have a weekend off, I was also prepared to beat anyone who tried to pass me, not QQ to them to slow down their honor.
The thing with WoW is, it's completely gear driven. There is really no reason to compete. So what, you're 2100, you can duel ming, who gives a ****. A lot of people buy points still, a lot of people play their 10 games a week and call it, they just want the gear to stay "competitive"? It really doesn't make sense when you think about it. Check general or trade on Mondays, all you see is, "lf arena team for 10 games for pts, pst". If there was more of a reason to actually compete than getting gear, you might see more people actually competing.
A few guildees of mine were just talking about all the AFKers this weekend, and you know what, I don't blame them. The time investment to even stand a chance in arena right now is retarded. I would say it's a minimum of 200 hours to completely gear up a new character to be "arena ready", no one wants to grind out BGs all day long, so they AFK. I think my guildee said it best when he said, "reporting people as afk only makes the problem worse, since they get less honor and afk more nights". And it's so true. Blizzard needs to start prema banning the afkers who are using 3rd party programs. No one will want their precess gear banned, so maybe they will actually play if they know they are going to get banned. But again, it's the system. They bring out new honor gear each season to force people back into the same ****ty BGs that we've had for 2 years. I love WSG, but not for 12 hours a day, hopefully they address the gearing issues in the expac, and make the game more about fun and competition than getting gear.
It was this way in the old honor system to, with PvP guilds setting honor "caps", so that the top ranked people would get their standing and hit their ranks. Wasn't the honor system supposed to be about competition? Granted the system was flawed, but I always hated "caps", or people who begged others to slow down their honor cus they might beat them that week. I played on one of those servers when I went for HWL, and while I mostly followed this guilds caps, because it was nice to have a weekend off, I was also prepared to beat anyone who tried to pass me, not QQ to them to slow down their honor.
The thing with WoW is, it's completely gear driven. There is really no reason to compete. So what, you're 2100, you can duel ming, who gives a ****. A lot of people buy points still, a lot of people play their 10 games a week and call it, they just want the gear to stay "competitive"? It really doesn't make sense when you think about it. Check general or trade on Mondays, all you see is, "lf arena team for 10 games for pts, pst". If there was more of a reason to actually compete than getting gear, you might see more people actually competing.
A few guildees of mine were just talking about all the AFKers this weekend, and you know what, I don't blame them. The time investment to even stand a chance in arena right now is retarded. I would say it's a minimum of 200 hours to completely gear up a new character to be "arena ready", no one wants to grind out BGs all day long, so they AFK. I think my guildee said it best when he said, "reporting people as afk only makes the problem worse, since they get less honor and afk more nights". And it's so true. Blizzard needs to start prema banning the afkers who are using 3rd party programs. No one will want their precess gear banned, so maybe they will actually play if they know they are going to get banned. But again, it's the system. They bring out new honor gear each season to force people back into the same ****ty BGs that we've had for 2 years. I love WSG, but not for 12 hours a day, hopefully they address the gearing issues in the expac, and make the game more about fun and competition than getting gear.
Kyle P. Dec 17, 2007 at 1:29 pm
+1 votes
I haven't experienced the PvE drama/competition stuff as much since my guild (Nurfed) remained together after I stopped playing.
On the PvP side of things I agree with you. WoW is tremendously gear based. Almost everyone who enjoys playing arena at the top end made it that far because they liked spending hours gaining a gear advantage so that their PvP experience is one of nearly assured dominance.
That being said I think there still are teams that love it when they are challenged and enjoy overcoming their challenges. But like you said, they probably aren't the majority.
On the PvP side of things I agree with you. WoW is tremendously gear based. Almost everyone who enjoys playing arena at the top end made it that far because they liked spending hours gaining a gear advantage so that their PvP experience is one of nearly assured dominance.
That being said I think there still are teams that love it when they are challenged and enjoy overcoming their challenges. But like you said, they probably aren't the majority.
raddy Dec 18, 2007 at 1:43 am
+1 votes
I don't care about rating or gear or crap like that. People dodge Qs and obsess about protecting their ratings because the way arena currently discourages seeking out hard fights due to the extreme rock/paper/scisssors nature of the smaller brackets. If you tank points to hard counters, you lose the ability to play games against the top teams that are more viable matchups, so you spend a huge amount of time tanking to bad matchups and farming easy ones, neither of which is as fun as playing a fight where you feel like if everyone plays their best, it's anyone's game.
Perhaps the solution isn't in balancing the classes but in how the arena awards points.
Perhaps the solution isn't in balancing the classes but in how the arena awards points.
daewen Dec 18, 2007 at 3:52 am
+1 votes
Indeed, the arena system does not foster competition at the top. During most of S2, my 3s team would go up against 5 point teams. Face a 5 point counter team, and we'd drop over 20 points. Wasn't fun nor competitive. Now, the glad rush for 5s at the end was fun. So many top teams duking it out. I've never had so much competition and I loved it. Well, that and the 5s bracket isn't as broken as the others in terms of balance.
To end, you're stereotyping and stereotypes don't hold true for everyone. And to the guy who rages in BG's because his teammates don't really play towards the objective, I feel his pain. Let's all fight midfield in WSG for no reason! *Pounds head on table*
To end, you're stereotyping and stereotypes don't hold true for everyone. And to the guy who rages in BG's because his teammates don't really play towards the objective, I feel his pain. Let's all fight midfield in WSG for no reason! *Pounds head on table*
Oozo Dec 26, 2007 at 4:21 pm
+1 votes
The Arena system is definitely flawed, and I agree that the only real feasible avenue to fix it is how the points are awarded. It's pretty easy to play the system if you are willing to do so. You look for the pattern times when the weakest teams are queueing and you farm them.
For my BG, you can farm weak teams in the morning and late on Monday night. Unfortunately, all of my friends are too carebear to exploit this and their main concern is that everyone gets their 30% in which restricts the number of games we play per team per week to 10. Otherwise, it becomes a logistical nightmare.
If we play those 10 games at the wrong time then we end up facing teams fully decked out in S2/S3 gear with our team comprised mostly of blues, greens, and honor purples (fresh L70s).
So, what determines how well we do during the week? Our skill? Somewhat. We beat teams close to or slightly above our gear level. But, it is far more determined by simply what day and what time we choose to do our 10.
For my BG, you can farm weak teams in the morning and late on Monday night. Unfortunately, all of my friends are too carebear to exploit this and their main concern is that everyone gets their 30% in which restricts the number of games we play per team per week to 10. Otherwise, it becomes a logistical nightmare.
If we play those 10 games at the wrong time then we end up facing teams fully decked out in S2/S3 gear with our team comprised mostly of blues, greens, and honor purples (fresh L70s).
So, what determines how well we do during the week? Our skill? Somewhat. We beat teams close to or slightly above our gear level. But, it is far more determined by simply what day and what time we choose to do our 10.
Oozo Dec 26, 2007 at 4:25 pm
+1 votes
I also disagree on the "BG rage" thing. When I'm actually playing and working for a win, I care. I care a lot. And when some idiot comes riding up and hits my sap while I'm 80% through the flag in AB they are going to ******* hear it.
What angers me the most in the BGs is just the pure lack of common sense and intelligence displayed by most of the players.
What angers me the most in the BGs is just the pure lack of common sense and intelligence displayed by most of the players.
wsvg Dec 18, 2007 at 5:56 pm
+1 votes
It's really a problem with the community in general. The fact that it's degraded so far into teams feeding their own teams wins tells you there's something seriously wrong.
WoW just isn't a good competitive game.
WoW just isn't a good competitive game.
Moreli Dec 18, 2007 at 7:17 pm
+1 votes
I want to keep pushing out games and win as much as possible. Some of my arena partners flat out refuse to keep playing when we get beaten because it's "pointless to lose more points."
Is arena about actually being a good player? Or looking like a better player than you are because of your rating and queue dodging?
Is arena about actually being a good player? Or looking like a better player than you are because of your rating and queue dodging?
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